Comments on: The Skinny on Cloud Lock-in http://blog.rightscale.com/2009/02/19/the-skinny-on-cloud-lock-in/ Cloud Computing. Delivered. Thu, 18 Mar 2010 18:16:54 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Gartner on cloud security: 'Our nightmare scenario is here now' - Global Affairs Forum, Politics, Law, Science, Health http://blog.rightscale.com/2009/02/19/the-skinny-on-cloud-lock-in/#comment-1373 Gartner on cloud security: 'Our nightmare scenario is here now' - Global Affairs Forum, Politics, Law, Science, Health Mon, 26 Oct 2009 21:47:28 +0000 http://blog.rightscale.com/?p=241#comment-1373 [...] slightly different take on cloud computing and security comes from this article: The Skinny on Cloud Lock-in RightScale Blog [...] [...] slightly different take on cloud computing and security comes from this article: The Skinny on Cloud Lock-in RightScale Blog [...]

]]> By: Rob Tweed http://blog.rightscale.com/2009/02/19/the-skinny-on-cloud-lock-in/#comment-1110 Rob Tweed Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:28:36 +0000 http://blog.rightscale.com/?p=241#comment-1110 Regarding SimpleDB lock-in, a number of people use our open-source alternative, M/DB, as a backup / local version. M/DB may help to alleviate the lock-in concerns about SimpleDB as it could run in any other cloud-provider's infrastructure. See http://www.mgateway.com/mdb.html for more information. Regarding SimpleDB lock-in, a number of people use our open-source alternative, M/DB, as a backup / local version. M/DB may help to alleviate the lock-in concerns about SimpleDB as it could run in any other cloud-provider’s infrastructure.

See http://www.mgateway.com/mdb.html for more information.

]]> By: Joseph Corbett http://blog.rightscale.com/2009/02/19/the-skinny-on-cloud-lock-in/#comment-851 Joseph Corbett Tue, 17 Mar 2009 19:07:45 +0000 http://blog.rightscale.com/?p=241#comment-851 There is lots to digest here! I'm thinking a lot more about the cloud apps and systems I use. I never even considered the "Lock-in Hypothesis" until now. Wes Fryer just published a post "Cloud-Based Computing" http://tinyurl.com/dg3yva which I think speaks to users like me who love to play with and adopt these technologies. It seems that very high end users who actually implement these system on a massive scale have a lot more to consider than the typical user does. It be great if you could check out our blog and leave some tips on what end-users should consider before adopting cloud solutions. There is lots to digest here! I’m thinking a lot more about the cloud apps and systems I use. I never even considered the “Lock-in Hypothesis” until now. Wes Fryer just published a post “Cloud-Based Computing” http://tinyurl.com/dg3yva which I think speaks to users like me who love to play with and adopt these technologies. It seems that very high end users who actually implement these system on a massive scale have a lot more to consider than the typical user does. It be great if you could check out our blog and leave some tips on what end-users should consider before adopting cloud solutions.

]]> By: Thorsten http://blog.rightscale.com/2009/02/19/the-skinny-on-cloud-lock-in/#comment-850 Thorsten Tue, 17 Mar 2009 06:12:21 +0000 http://blog.rightscale.com/?p=241#comment-850 Mitch, your point about "priority of concerns" is a good one. But then you're also an early adopter that is very agile. For a lot of larger businesses that are still in the *looking* at the cloud phase it is a real concern. They don't want to invest resources to "learn the cloud" if they are going to face lock-in issues. Many also have corporate requirements for alternate vendors. We've had to do interesting things for more than one customer who had to have a DR site somewhere other than AWS to satisfy internal policies. Plus, all this is a very popular topic at conferences, which is what initially sparked this blog entry. Mitch, your point about “priority of concerns” is a good one. But then you’re also an early adopter that is very agile. For a lot of larger businesses that are still in the *looking* at the cloud phase it is a real concern. They don’t want to invest resources to “learn the cloud” if they are going to face lock-in issues. Many also have corporate requirements for alternate vendors. We’ve had to do interesting things for more than one customer who had to have a DR site somewhere other than AWS to satisfy internal policies. Plus, all this is a very popular topic at conferences, which is what initially sparked this blog entry.

]]> By: Jeff Hardy from SmarterTools http://blog.rightscale.com/2009/02/19/the-skinny-on-cloud-lock-in/#comment-833 Jeff Hardy from SmarterTools Mon, 09 Mar 2009 18:45:40 +0000 http://blog.rightscale.com/?p=241#comment-833 Decent post - a few comments: In November 2008 I presented on a panel with Mike Culver from Amazon Web Services on this very topic. I was attaempting to split fact from fiction. The presentation was very well received and prompted a follow-up article that you can find here: http://www.smarter tools.com/blog/archive/2008/11/20/cloud-computing-challenges-benefits-and-the-future.aspx SmarterTools is in BETA right now to bring our SmarterTrack customer service product to the SaaS model. We have long railed against the evils of the "locked- in" model, so we opened the door pretty wide. Our model allows users/subscribers to migrate our of our SaaS "cloud" and onto an installed and "owned" version of the software at anytime. Further, we allow all data to be exported in convertional formats. Freedom is a good thing. Be well, Jeffrey J. Hardy Decent post – a few comments:

In November 2008 I presented on a panel with Mike Culver from Amazon Web Services on this very topic. I was attaempting to split fact from fiction. The presentation was very well received and prompted a follow-up article that you can find here:
http://www.smarter tools.com/blog/archive/2008/11/20/cloud-computing-challenges-benefits-and-the-future.aspx

SmarterTools is in BETA right now to bring our SmarterTrack customer service product to the SaaS model. We have long railed against the evils of the “locked- in” model, so we opened the door pretty wide. Our model allows users/subscribers to migrate our of our SaaS “cloud” and onto an installed and “owned” version of the software at anytime. Further, we allow all data to be exported in convertional formats.

Freedom is a good thing.

Be well,
Jeffrey J. Hardy

]]> By: The Skinny on Cloud Lock-in « RightScale Blog « freeworldpulse.com http://blog.rightscale.com/2009/02/19/the-skinny-on-cloud-lock-in/#comment-825 The Skinny on Cloud Lock-in « RightScale Blog « freeworldpulse.com Sun, 08 Mar 2009 03:25:08 +0000 http://blog.rightscale.com/?p=241#comment-825 [...] via The Skinny on Cloud Lock-in « RightScale Blog. [...] [...] via The Skinny on Cloud Lock-in « RightScale Blog. [...]

]]> By: Mitch Garnaat http://blog.rightscale.com/2009/02/19/the-skinny-on-cloud-lock-in/#comment-816 Mitch Garnaat Tue, 03 Mar 2009 13:06:38 +0000 http://blog.rightscale.com/?p=241#comment-816 Hi Thorsten - I'm late to the party, didn't see this post till now. I understand the concern about lock-in but, at the moment, I find it difficult to worry a great deal about lock-in when there are so few viable alternatives to AWS. It's kind of like Mazlow's Hierarchy of Needs; Lock-in is a concern in the hierarchy but it's close to the top of the pyramid and at the moment my concerns are at a much more fundamental level within the hierarchy so I'm not focusing a lot of my attention on that problem. And ultimately, I can get my data out of SimpleDB (and in much less time than it took to put it in there, thanks to my lop-sided connectivity). Mitch Hi Thorsten -

I’m late to the party, didn’t see this post till now. I understand the concern about lock-in but, at the moment, I find it difficult to worry a great deal about lock-in when there are so few viable alternatives to AWS.

It’s kind of like Mazlow’s Hierarchy of Needs; Lock-in is a concern in the hierarchy but it’s close to the top of the pyramid and at the moment my concerns are at a much more fundamental level within the hierarchy so I’m not focusing a lot of my attention on that problem. And ultimately, I can get my data out of SimpleDB (and in much less time than it took to put it in there, thanks to my lop-sided connectivity).

Mitch

]]> By: andy.edmonds.be › links for 2009-02-26 http://blog.rightscale.com/2009/02/19/the-skinny-on-cloud-lock-in/#comment-798 andy.edmonds.be › links for 2009-02-26 Fri, 27 Feb 2009 00:33:08 +0000 http://blog.rightscale.com/?p=241#comment-798 [...] The Skinny on Cloud Lock-in « RightScale Blog (tags: cloud cloudcomputing interoperability portability) [...] [...] The Skinny on Cloud Lock-in « RightScale Blog (tags: cloud cloudcomputing interoperability portability) [...]

]]> By: Blending Clouds: Avoiding Lock-in and Envisioning the Cloud Fabric : Closing the Gap http://blog.rightscale.com/2009/02/19/the-skinny-on-cloud-lock-in/#comment-783 Blending Clouds: Avoiding Lock-in and Envisioning the Cloud Fabric : Closing the Gap Sun, 22 Feb 2009 23:40:50 +0000 http://blog.rightscale.com/?p=241#comment-783 [...] von Eickenat at RightScale make an interesting and logically sound assessment of cloud lock in. Thorsten argues that the risk of lock-in increases dramatically in higher layers in the stack: [...] [...] von Eickenat at RightScale make an interesting and logically sound assessment of cloud lock in. Thorsten argues that the risk of lock-in increases dramatically in higher layers in the stack: [...]

]]> By: tamberg http://blog.rightscale.com/2009/02/19/the-skinny-on-cloud-lock-in/#comment-773 tamberg Fri, 20 Feb 2009 13:18:05 +0000 http://blog.rightscale.com/?p=241#comment-773 "If G raises the fees or makes an otherwise unattractive move, tough luck, you’re stuck!" Or I just move to "AppEngine" on EC2 (http://waxy.org/2008/04/exclusive_google_app_engine_ported_to_amazons_ec2/ ). Even if that proofs your point rather than mine. Regards, tamberg “If G raises the fees or makes an otherwise unattractive move, tough luck, you’re stuck!”

Or I just move to “AppEngine” on EC2 (http://waxy.org/2008/04/exclusive_google_app_engine_ported_to_amazons_ec2/ ). Even if that proofs your point rather than mine.

Regards,
tamberg

]]> By: Thorsten http://blog.rightscale.com/2009/02/19/the-skinny-on-cloud-lock-in/#comment-770 Thorsten Fri, 20 Feb 2009 05:14:55 +0000 http://blog.rightscale.com/?p=241#comment-770 Paul, I'm not sure I follow your argument. The point is not about breadth but about interoperability. When you build on infrastructure clouds you use more standard (interoperable) interfaces. That means you're *less* locked-in. I looked at the page you link to and I totally agree with respect to the attraction of platform clouds. Hey, who wouldn't love to just dump their app on someone else and say "you run it, you make it fast, you back it up, go!". The point I tried to make in this post is that the price you pay is lock-in. If G raises the fees or makes an otherwise unattractive move, tough luck, you're stuck! When is comes to the prediction at the end, I actually believe that Amazon is on the real inside track, if you saw where their business is headed, you'd have to agree. Where is G's cloud *business*? But coming back to platform vs. infrastructure, I realize I should write a separate post just on that. I think the future is somewhere in between 'cause, as appealing as the platform model may appear, the reality is that more transparency and control is needed in real life. Paul, I’m not sure I follow your argument. The point is not about breadth but about interoperability. When you build on infrastructure clouds you use more standard (interoperable) interfaces. That means you’re *less* locked-in.

I looked at the page you link to and I totally agree with respect to the attraction of platform clouds. Hey, who wouldn’t love to just dump their app on someone else and say “you run it, you make it fast, you back it up, go!”. The point I tried to make in this post is that the price you pay is lock-in. If G raises the fees or makes an otherwise unattractive move, tough luck, you’re stuck!

When is comes to the prediction at the end, I actually believe that Amazon is on the real inside track, if you saw where their business is headed, you’d have to agree. Where is G’s cloud *business*? But coming back to platform vs. infrastructure, I realize I should write a separate post just on that. I think the future is somewhere in between ’cause, as appealing as the platform model may appear, the reality is that more transparency and control is needed in real life.

]]> By: Thorsten http://blog.rightscale.com/2009/02/19/the-skinny-on-cloud-lock-in/#comment-769 Thorsten Fri, 20 Feb 2009 04:54:42 +0000 http://blog.rightscale.com/?p=241#comment-769 Thanks for the kind words! I wish you had copied me, I'd have been flattered! ;-) Thanks for the kind words! I wish you had copied me, I’d have been flattered! ;-)

]]> By: Thorsten http://blog.rightscale.com/2009/02/19/the-skinny-on-cloud-lock-in/#comment-768 Thorsten Fri, 20 Feb 2009 04:53:05 +0000 http://blog.rightscale.com/?p=241#comment-768 Thanks Reuven! I always enjoy peeking at http://www.elasticvapor.com/ too! Thanks Reuven! I always enjoy peeking at http://www.elasticvapor.com/ too!

]]> By: Reuven Cohen http://blog.rightscale.com/2009/02/19/the-skinny-on-cloud-lock-in/#comment-767 Reuven Cohen Thu, 19 Feb 2009 23:17:17 +0000 http://blog.rightscale.com/?p=241#comment-767 Great post guys, very Informative as always! Great post guys, very Informative as always!

]]> By: B. Factor http://blog.rightscale.com/2009/02/19/the-skinny-on-cloud-lock-in/#comment-765 B. Factor Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:51:49 +0000 http://blog.rightscale.com/?p=241#comment-765 Thanks for a great post. Good to see that someone in the field has addressed the 500 lb gorilla in the cloud services room. Thanks for a great post. Good to see that someone in the field has addressed the 500 lb gorilla in the cloud services room.

]]> By: botchagalupe http://blog.rightscale.com/2009/02/19/the-skinny-on-cloud-lock-in/#comment-764 botchagalupe Thu, 19 Feb 2009 20:20:05 +0000 http://blog.rightscale.com/?p=241#comment-764 I totally agree on the Lock-in hypothesis. I just did an interview with Computerworld and said the exact same thing ( I didn't copy you I promise). Great post. John johnmwillis.com I totally agree on the Lock-in hypothesis. I just did an interview with Computerworld and said the exact same thing ( I didn’t copy you I promise). Great post.

John
johnmwillis.com

]]> By: Eduardo Jezierski http://blog.rightscale.com/2009/02/19/the-skinny-on-cloud-lock-in/#comment-763 Eduardo Jezierski Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:06:11 +0000 http://blog.rightscale.com/?p=241#comment-763 Hi - Thanks for sharing the survey of 'what concerns you most', unfortunately the rest of the post doesn't prioritize the issue accordingly (my reading is that it focuses mostly on a runtime or app framework issues, and less on the data which is the largest concern). If your app has read access to all the data it writes, and can re-expose it by definition it is not locked in. If as many tools existed to move data around to/from S3 as there exists for MySQL, this wouldnt be a concern. So maybe it's a matter of time until they get done, and this is just like RDBMSs before ODBC JDBC and the likes emerged. Wait till ORM frameworks evolve to provide cloud versions, too, and apps will be easier to build, test, and port. A more insiduous lock-in not mentioned at the app level is of the authentication authority and user identity system - build your app with GAE and you are locked into gmail AuthN. Also, the emergence of open-source cloud infrastructure is desirable but the analyisis is again a bit superficial. If google open sourced all the GAE and gmail authn infrastructure and... (as an example, te argument applies to AWS and Azure and the likes) it would allow others to replicate partially the environment but missing the real asset/ secret source of why the cloud option is attractive: A high-scalability, availability, and security datacenter for storage, memory, cpu, networking! Until a open-source datacenter with servers, cooling, network etc is maintained (or until a more fantastic peer to peer thing using spare change computing shows up) open source cloud infrastructures will be only be interesting to developers and enterprises wanting to keep 'their own mini clouds' . Hi – Thanks for sharing the survey of ‘what concerns you most’, unfortunately the rest of the post doesn’t prioritize the issue accordingly (my reading is that it focuses mostly on a runtime or app framework issues, and less on the data which is the largest concern). If your app has read access to all the data it writes, and can re-expose it by definition it is not locked in. If as many tools existed to move data around to/from S3 as there exists for MySQL, this wouldnt be a concern. So maybe it’s a matter of time until they get done, and this is just like RDBMSs before ODBC JDBC and the likes emerged. Wait till ORM frameworks evolve to provide cloud versions, too, and apps will be easier to build, test, and port.
A more insiduous lock-in not mentioned at the app level is of the authentication authority and user identity system – build your app with GAE and you are locked into gmail AuthN.
Also, the emergence of open-source cloud infrastructure is desirable but the analyisis is again a bit superficial. If google open sourced all the GAE and gmail authn infrastructure and… (as an example, te argument applies to AWS and Azure and the likes) it would allow others to replicate partially the environment but missing the real asset/ secret source of why the cloud option is attractive: A high-scalability, availability, and security datacenter for storage, memory, cpu, networking!
Until a open-source datacenter with servers, cooling, network etc is maintained (or until a more fantastic peer to peer thing using spare change computing shows up) open source cloud infrastructures will be only be interesting to developers and enterprises wanting to keep ‘their own mini clouds’ .

]]> By: tamberg http://blog.rightscale.com/2009/02/19/the-skinny-on-cloud-lock-in/#comment-762 tamberg Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:49:32 +0000 http://blog.rightscale.com/?p=241#comment-762 "The higher the cloud layer you operate in, the greater the lock-in" Not sure about that. Isn't an OS VM a broader "interface" than a programming language plus an application model, thereby increasing dependency? (http://www.amundsen.com/blog/archives/964 argues that only Google "get's it") Regards, tamberg “The higher the cloud layer you operate in, the greater the lock-in”

Not sure about that. Isn’t an OS VM a broader “interface” than a programming language plus an application model, thereby increasing dependency?

(http://www.amundsen.com/blog/archives/964 argues that only Google “get’s it”)

Regards,
tamberg

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